Sarah Ashman 0:00

The biggest thing I think is a are these things still in alignment with my business. And I feel like a lot of people don't do that. Instead, it's, it's constantly the push for new and better and different.

Jeremy Enns 0:12

You're listening to build a better wellness biz. I'm your host, Jeremy Enns. In this episode, I'm talking with Sara Ashman,

Sarah Ashman 0:20

my business is public persona, and I help coaches, creatives and consultants weave their passions, their purpose and their personality into a brand that positions them uniquely in their space. I combine mindset work, business and brand strategy and creative direction to really help people to amplify who they are. Well, there

Jeremy Enns 0:42

are a lot of brand designers out there, Sara approaches the topic from a somewhat unconventional angle, weaving her interdisciplinary skill set into her work in a way that results in unique brand identities and experiences for her clients. As you heard, she mentioned mindset work being a key component of her process, something you might not immediately associate with the often outward facing concept of branding,

Sarah Ashman 1:04

it's imperative to kind of strip away some of those layers of who we think we should be and shouldn't be. And just to sort of acknowledge who it is that we are and what we really want and who we actually are, in order to feel more comfortable and confident with whatever we build on the outside. We also

Jeremy Enns 1:23

talk about how much of the magic in a well aligned brand is not in how others perceive it, but in how you perceive it. Something I've recently experienced with my own brand,

Sarah Ashman 1:32

confidence is magnetic inherently. And so when you're confident in what you do, and how you're putting yourself out there in the world, be that through design, or your viewpoints, or whatever it is, that's most important to you, that inner confidence is ultimately your biggest branding tool.

Jeremy Enns 1:50

And we talked about how Sarah has managed to grow a thriving business without an ounce of marketing, and what the rest of us can take away from her experience.

Sarah Ashman 1:58

We're constantly being taught that we need to learn the next tactics and the next strategies, I actually have come to understand that it's really more important to develop a relationship with yourself as that marker of what feels right for me, versus what does this blueprint say is right for me, almost using yourself as your own board of directors to honestly assess if that's the right thing that will help you to grow your business or not.

Jeremy Enns 2:35

One of the foundations of Sarah's approach to branding is that it has absolutely nothing to do with showing that you're better than your competition, and everything to do with showing how you're different. I wanted to start there.

Sarah Ashman 2:51

You know, a lot of times when we try to build a brand, we're trying to amplify who we are to reach a certain audience. And what's interesting is when we are the face of our brands, which you know, everyone that's listening to this podcast is it's not about trying to show that you have more skills or that you're better at what you do, but rather, it's it's really diving into what makes you unique, what are those little things that you do? Or maybe it's a way that you actually deliver your product or your service? Or maybe it's, you know, certain personality traits that you have that are a little bit different than than others in your space. And it's those things that can really help to amplify what makes you unique, it helps other people to be able to immediately identify who you are. And it is essentially what makes you memorable.

Jeremy Enns 3:51

Yeah. And so I think when we think about the comparison game and looking at other people, of course, it's so it's almost impossible to escape it feels like these days, especially with people in the wellness space, who I think probably most people are most active on Instagram, very visual platform, and everybody sharing their perfect photos of them with their smoothies and doing their yoga or whatever it is it feels really easy to get sucked into all these things. And you're like, Well, my life's not like that. And even if you're putting out similar photos, it's kind of because you feel you have to because this is what everyone else is doing. And so I'm curious, a lot of times, when we think about the comparison game, that's a we think about the negative effects on our mindset, but what about the negative effects that comparing yourself to others and building a brand that is like others have on our own brands and businesses?

Sarah Ashman 4:36

Sure, I mean, what ends up happening is we end up looking and sounding exactly the same as everybody else and I'm sure you know when you've been comparison shopping quote unquote, for a service provider or program. I'm sure that you've run across that as well. People's brands, it's very different to discern what makes them unique or it's very hard really for you to be able to identify with them as a person, when you're hiding behind all of these layers of shoulds, and shouldn't.

Jeremy Enns 5:07

So what's the process then to break out of that mindset? Because it's so easy. And a lot of times, you know, you might look at somebody and see their brand and be like, I like that I wish that was my brand. And so it's really easy to just start taking pieces of that. So how do you actually start from the bottom and say, like, Okay, well, I like to look at this brand, but I need to build something that is actually authentic to me,

Sarah Ashman 5:27

the advice that I always give to my clients and students is to keep your eyes on your own paper, which is essentially you know, what we hear in school. But really, if you want to start the process of standing out uniquely in your space, that's really the first thing that you have to do is really to turn inward, and to tune everything else out as hard as that is, and really to start to look at the different things that make you who you are. And you know, this can be something as basic as how would I describe my personality? Am I upbeat? Am I funny? What is it that makes me interesting? And you know, you can always ask someone else to be your mirror that knows you? Well, because you know, a lot of times, it's like we're inside of a bottle, and we can't read the label. And it can often help to have someone reflect that back to you. But even asking yourself, what is it that you like? Do you like the color pink? Or are you just drawn to that to represent your brand, because that's what everyone else is, is doing. And it's just sort of taking stock in who you are and what you're naturally drawn to that can help you to really delve into the space in which you can create a brand that stands out.

Jeremy Enns 6:48

Yeah, so I want to get back to a lot of that what you just talked about, but I think it might be helpful to kind of clarify how you think about branding, because I think so many times when we're getting into a branding conversation, a lot of people are thinking like, Well, yeah, it's my website, my color palette, my logo. And those are one little tiny aspect of branding in one kind of facet there. So I'm curious when you are thinking about actually constructing a brand, like what all goes into this, what does this all encompass.

Sarah Ashman 7:18

When you are the face of your brand, when you're a person and you've created a business around your skill, set your passion, and your business is your brand. Everything that you do everything that you're putting into your day to day interactions with your clients, or your students or your customers. Everything is an extension of you and an expression of you. And so it goes way deeper than the outward facing elements that represent you. That's just surface level. Instead, it's really what is what is it that you're doing the services, your process, those are all the core elements that create your core brand identity. Everything else is just the outward facing expression of that.

Jeremy Enns 8:08

Yeah, then I like to think of branding it a lot of times as well as almost like the promise you make to people and the results you get people like that's probably the most powerful part of your brand is if if you have a reputation of being able to help people achieve this thing, like that is so much more powerful than a really well written website or a really sharp logo. Because word of mouth, as I think we're going to talk about with you is like that spreads, and people may never even go to your website, they might have heard from five of their friends, hey, Sarah, created this amazing brands for me. And if I've seen all their websites, I'll be like, okay, sign me up.

Sarah Ashman 8:40

Right, that's so true, it really is going down to what it is that you do, and how is that represented, which is oftentimes your reputation.

Jeremy Enns 8:50

So one of the things that I've seen when we're talking about like the brand being an extension of ourselves, so we are the focus of the brand, it is a personal brand. Even if we might have a little bit of a team around us, I've seen more and more people being more and more transparent and sharing more. And so they might have their Spotify playlists and their like book reading lists that have nothing to do with their business. And I think a lot of times, especially when people are starting out that feels irrelevant to their service offering. And so there's like, No, I want to be taken seriously as a yoga instructor as a nutritionist or whatever this is. So I don't want to like start sharing all this stuff that isn't really on brand or focused or about what I actually do for people. In your experience. Does that dilute from the brand? Or does that actually add to it?

Sarah Ashman 9:30

It actually adds to it I you know, it helps to dimensionalize you in an online space that's otherwise crowded, it helps people to be able to identify with you and to see you know, what kind of a person are you what are you interested in? For example, I ended up hiring a coach at one point myself to help me with my business. And what I noticed is that she talked a lot about running marathons and that was something that I was personally interested in and so I saw myself in her I was able to identify with her and it had nothing to do with what she did. And this is something that that, you know, is a really easy way to help others to feel like they know you, which can help build that trust that know like trust factor. That's so important.

Jeremy Enns 10:19

Yeah, do you feel like there's a limit to that though, like, you should only I feel like at some point, it just becomes like almost vomiting all the details of your life out there, which can certainly dilute your brand. So how do you think about like, Okay, well, this is maybe relevant to my brand. And these things are not relevant to my brand.

Sarah Ashman 10:36

I mean, I think, you know, if you have three things, maybe that you're focused on and using those as, you know, content pillars, or buckets, as I call them, sometimes maybe focusing on just three at a time, and not the everything that's going to give that repetition, as well, if you're talking about those subjects, and it's not gonna overwhelm, or completely take away from what it is that you're actually hoping people will do.

Jeremy Enns 11:06

Okay. So before, you talked a little bit about how it can often feel like we're on the inside of this bottle, and we can't really see what our brand is. And I know that something that's been said about you, by many of your clients is that you have this unique ability to really see the big picture and be able to look at someone and everything that they're doing and be like, Okay, this is the thread that runs through it. And I think that maybe a few of us are really clear on that. And most of us have no idea. And we're like, well, this is what I do, this is who I am, I don't know how to describe that, or convey that visually, or represent that in any way to anyone. I just know, like, this is me. So for people I know, you talked about, like having someone to reflect things back to you are there like a series of questions, or any other tools that for somebody who's going through the branding process on their own, they can't afford to hire a branding person, right off the start that they can like, go through a process and be like, Okay, well, this is how I can get clarity on what my brand actually is.

Sarah Ashman 12:00

So one of the most powerful exercises that I have stumbled upon myself really, but also use with clients is trying to sort of connect the dots and looking at some of your interests outside of what you do, thinking about how it is that you ended up doing whatever it is that you do, and just noticing themes, it's evident and everyone. And if you just start to notice, what it is that you do, how you do it, how you came to do what you do, those are going to start to jump out for you that can very well become that common thread. So for example, with that coach, let's say that I spoke about and I hired, and I was drawn to the fact that she ran marathons, and a lot of her process is very much akin to training for a marathon. And so that then just something as simple as that, that her process is very similar to that same process of training for a marathon, that alone can become this through line or golden thread upon which your entire brand can be built.

Jeremy Enns 13:17

Yeah. What about for yourself? Like? Are you someone who has been able to see that through line in your own brand? Or what are some of the themes that have jumped out for you as you've been constructing things for yourself?

Sarah Ashman 13:28

This was something that I stumbled upon because I when I was a kid, I was very artistic. And I when I was a senior in high school, I wrote an illustrated a children's book, it was called max in the magic purple polka dotted pajamas. And it was really a lot of fun to write. And I had forgotten about this for so many years. And I should back up also and just mention that I was adopted at birth. And this plays into all of this. So I'm looking at these as dots. I'm adopted at birth, I write this book, and the book Max and magic purple polka dotted pajamas is about this little boy who receives a pair of pajamas from his aunt. And essentially they can when he wears them to bed, he can become anyone that he wants to be. And so every night, he's something different, you know, a space Crusader, when I use a famous Major League Baseball player, you know, and the next is scary green monster. And each time he decides that it's not really cracked up to what he was hoping it would be.

And so at the end, he puts on his old blue striped pajamas and his mom says, you know, where were your magic pajamas? And he says, Well, I guess the best is just being me. So that's what I'll be. And I had written that at 17. And I found it when I was kind of searching for what's next for me in terms of my own brand in terms of my own business. And when I found that it all kind of clicked together. Here I was my entire life kind of looking for my identity, because I had been adopted. And here I was, you know, writing this book that was kind of a powerful message to myself, which was, hey, it's okay. You don't need to be something other than who you are. And what's amazing is that I realized that is essentially what has become my business, I use that ability to shift identity or to tap into identity or to create identity based on you know, who I am. And I use that now with others. And that has become, you know, my own golden thread and through line that I've noticed, just from doing this work on my own,

Jeremy Enns 15:51

I love that and that that book sounds amazing. Please tell me that that's been like, picked up and published everywhere. Because it sounds phenomenal.

Sarah Ashman 15:58

Okay, not yet. It's gonna happen yet.

Jeremy Enns 16:00

It's interesting. Thinking about that. And that kind of just reminds me, I don't feel like I actually think about this that much anymore. But when I was doing a rebrand to counterweight creative for my production company, two or so years ago, it was funny how the pieces start to come together almost subconsciously, like, I didn't realize what was drawing me to certain things. And so the phrase counterweight, what I realized, like that came to mind is like, there's something interesting about that concept. I don't know what it is. But I like the word sounds cool. It works. I like to see the counterweight creative. And something about the idea that I was like, I don't know what it is. And as I explored it more, I realized that, for me, personally, I've always had this very strong balance between the creative and the kind of analytical. And so I'm, like, very organized, and very systems oriented, but also very creative. And so a strength of mine has always been is being a mirror to people, either who are on the extreme creative side, and don't have any of the business side of things, or who come from it from a super business side, and don't have any of the creative kind of Spark. And I was like, Oh, this is this feels like this is what my unique talent this and I wasn't even sure what was drawing me to these little this imagery, or the words or anything like that. And then once I realized I was like, Oh, yeah, this is like very in line with, with these things that have always been true about me. And that all kind of came into focus over time. So I guess I would say like, if you when you're thinking about your brand to like, No, just notice those things that interests you that like, stick out in your mind and just mull over and be like, why is this? What is this connected to? And kind of connect the dots like you were talking about?

Sarah Ashman 17:32

Absolutely, absolutely. what it sounds like, also, you know, that's your superpower. And oftentimes, that is, whether we're conscious or not, what we built a business around, is those interests and those skill sets that maybe we just didn't even realize that we had or superpowers? And so that sounds like that's exactly the perfect naming convention for your business.

Jeremy Enns 17:55

Yeah. So you mentioned mindset at the start, and how that's a big part of the process for you, and you're working with your clients. Can you explain a little bit about what that looks like? And maybe what some of the challenges are that people are facing that they they need to sort through when they're rebranding or building a brand for the first time?

Sarah Ashman 18:10

Yeah, so a lot of times, it's, it's a blessing and a curse to create a business around who we are, as humans, and what we're interested in. And, you know, again, like I said, we're inside the bottle and can't read the label. And a lot of times, we're so focused on who we think we should be, or shouldn't be in order to bring clients in, because that's what we're taught, we need to do as a business owner, or, you know, with a brand, a formal brand, in terms of, you know, expression, also, we think that we need to become something that's going to be attractive to our potential clients. And what's really important, first and foremost, is perfecting how we perceive ourselves.

So even though branding technically is about perfecting how others see us, it's imperative to kind of strip away some of those layers of who we think we should be and shouldn't be, and just to sort of acknowledge who it is that we are and what we really want to be doing in our business and brand. And who we actually are, in order to feel more comfortable and confident with whatever we build on the outside. And then a lot of times just that act alone, of just being able to see who we really are, enables us to overcome all the other limiting beliefs that we often have in this line of work, which you know, is of course, imposter syndrome, fear of not being enough fear of rejection, and what I've found is really working through and you know, appreciating all that you are and what you have to give, it eliminates that and

Jeremy Enns 19:58

I love that one of the other things kind of mindset things that I know I felt early on. And I see so many people do it, I think this is less common among coaches where you definitely are the face of your brand. But a lot of times when you're starting out, you want to almost appear bigger than you are, and you adopt language like we on your website and all these things. So there's a mindset shift around that, and then it feels like at a later stage, we can also almost feel hemmed in, then buy a solo printer style brand, a personal brand, when we don't actually want to be the one working with the clients anymore. And we might have hired coaches underneath us. So I'm curious, like how you approach branding from that perspective, it's so that it's flexible, and that maybe you are the face, and there is that personality still involved, but there's still room within it to you know, not be the one who's you know, answering the phone and like doing all the sales calls. And like all the things as your business hopefully grows,

Sarah Ashman 20:46

right, one of the ways that I like to approach, you know, actually building the brand, is taking a look at where you want to be and who you want to be five years from now, because that's subconsciously, where you're headed anyway. And so if you're able to build a brand that enables you to expand in that way, and and a brand that you can essentially grow into that is what will enable you to continue to evolve beyond that. And in many cases, also close the gap between where you are now and that perceived future. And

Jeremy Enns 21:23

that makes me think of as well, one of the questions I had was around how you think about trends. And I think this is probably more of a thing for people who are doing their own branding, whether they are, you know, working with somebody who's maybe not a super experienced designer, but can put together their ideas, they're like, this is what I want, okay, this person can execute, maybe not entirely lead the branding process, or maybe somebody has some, some design skills of their own. And so I think a lot of times, if we're doing it ourselves, we look at everything we like that's out there, and we're like, oh, this is like, I love the look of this, I'm going to like steal all these things for my brand and pieces together. But when you're looking at building a brand five years out pretty quickly, you're gonna have to like rebrand within a year or two. And those trends fade. So I'm curious how you think about like, as consumers a lot of time we love what's in style right now. And what's trendy. So how, as a business owner, do you appeal to your target audience who might love the current trend, while also leaving that trend or going into the next phase of things?

Sarah Ashman 22:18

A lot of times what I prefer to do with folks is to look at, or to ask, why is it that you like, that style? Or that font? And does that actually represent who you are? Or what you want to be doing? And a lot of times just by asking that question, you'll come to the realization that No, actually it doesn't, it doesn't match who I am. And so if you don't have, you know, the resources, or the, you know, designers there who will help to sort of Shepherd you into that future vision. I always say that, you know, simple and classic is best. And if you're not sure what classic is, you can always look at something like Pinterest, and look up classic web design, or you can look even at something like Squarespace, none of their sites are overtly trending, you know, that it's gonna stand the test of time. And so you could use that as just a resource to ensure that you're not designing something or creating something that's gonna be a flash in the pan and something that you like, you're gonna have to redo next week.

Jeremy Enns 23:33

Yeah, I can definitely say, as someone who has like done my own website building, that is not something that I want to be doing every year, I would much prefer to like, do that once every three to five years. Five years is maybe a little long for a website, they'll probably be updates along the way there. But yeah, once you do it once, it's like, Okay, I'm glad that's done with and I don't need to think about that again. Every Sunday, I send out my Listen up newsletter to over 1000 entrepreneurs, marketers, and creatives who are seeking to grow an audience around work that means something, each week features and articles to help you reframe how you're approaching your business, along with five things I discovered the previous week that I think might help you in your life in business. Instead of another tactic or strategy to add to your never ending to do list. The newsletter is meant to help you rise above the noise and look at your work from a new perspective. It's best consumed sitting somewhere cozy with a cup of coffee in your hand, which is exactly how I write it. writing this newsletter is my very favorite thing I do in my business. And it's something I'm truly proud to create and share.

I'd be honored to send it to you and you can sign up at better wellness dot biz slash newsletter. So I'm curious how you think about kind of the lifecycle of a brand and as somebody who is the face of a brand, obviously you are going to maintain, you may shift brands throughout there but it's still going to be you at the center of it. And oftentimes when we're starting out, we're probably not paying 10s of 1000s of dollars for a branding designer to come in and set everything For us, if we are, you know, bootstrapping things, we're creating everything ourselves. And so I'm curious for someone who's just starting out who's just doing it themselves, what are the kind of like elements of their brand that are actually going to have a big impact on their the success of their business that they should spend time focusing on? Whether this is visuals or something else entirely?

Sarah Ashman 25:18

You know, the most important piece to have in place, of course, is what is it that makes you unique, and just knowing knowing what that is. And again, it could be your personality traits, or things that you're interested in that maybe differ from somebody else in your space? Beyond that, it really is a story. What's your story? How did you come to do what you do? Why are you so passionate about it? It doesn't have to be, you know, some big, overblown, epic, five part series, it can be very simple, but what's your story, and beyond that, it really is, you know, in terms of the more outward facing stylistic elements, really, I think I always say the best thing that you can focus on or invest your time in is your photography, just getting some nice photos of you, nice photos of you doing what you do. And you know, showing that I think is the best way to invest in in your brand, and to really help to draw people in, especially with Instagram, and you know, even a website. The other thing that I would always recommend is, what are your viewpoints? What are some of those key things that you feel really strongly about when it comes to what you do. And just articulating those and having them written down, it's so helpful for anything from a podcast interview to something that you can speak to often on Instagram, but it's those, those points that are really going to give your voice some. And it's really going to help to underscore what makes you and your approach different.

Jeremy Enns 27:06

I love that you brought that up, because that is something that I have becoming more and more interested in and and noticing in myself that I am increasingly attracted to brands that have an opinion, and are very vocal about that. And it it often like they work that opinion into their products and services and everything they do. But oftentimes it shows up in their marketing unrelated to actually what they do. I was actually looking at software companies last week that were for a service that is pretty much a commodity, there are five different companies maybe even like 10 different companies that all do basically the same thing. And I'm looking through them. And I'm like, I don't know which one to choose here. They're all kind of the same. I know they'll all be good. So like, how do I decide they all have the same price point, there's like literally nothing differentiating any of them other than their websites look different.

And on the one of them, I got to they had a header, or a bar right underneath their header that was, we believe Black Lives Matter, like and then they had a full write up on it. And then at the bottom of their page, they had their supporters of the 1% for the planet movement as well. And I was like, oh, like, this is just the one then like all these other ones. I like that they stated like, we believe these things, we're gonna put that on our homepage, and we're gonna attract those people who believe those same things too. And I was like this, neither of these things has anything to do with the service, they offer the software. But I feel like I aligned with the people who run it a little bit more now. And so I think like those things, I'm just starting to think how can I work more and more of these types of opinions into my branding as well. So I love that you brought that up?

Sarah Ashman 28:31

Yeah, yeah, opinions are powerful.

Jeremy Enns 28:34

Yeah. So after somebody has an established brand, at what point does it actually make sense to work with someone like yourself or another branding designer, to actually kind of amplify that and take the brand to the next level, because like, some people probably will never do this. But what's a sign that like this might be helpful for you and your business, and that this investment is actually going to get you to that next level.

Sarah Ashman 28:57

And then usually, the people that tend to come to me are in an inflection point. So that means that they've done quite well. And they're looking to sort of like move on to the next level, or they've slightly pivoted their business and their brand. And what they've been known for, up until this point is not what they want to continue to be known for, you know, of course, scaling, or, as you mentioned earlier, wanting to kind of step out of a business entirely to have other people run it. Those are often the best points at which to do this kind of a process because you you get to look at everything with fresh eyes. And it's not just about applying a new facade. It's about going back to the foundation and having that option to create something that really is expressing where you want to go in the future.

Jeremy Enns 29:56

Yeah, that's interesting, because that's something that I've experienced as well. Cuz I like I said, I've kind of done all the design and website work for myself, my girlfriend's a designer. So I have lots of help and support on figuring things out along the way. But it's interesting that I might kind of like, self taught design skills took a leap at one point. And I, when I rolled up the new website, and even as I've had more pieces kind of come into place on that website, and I felt to get tighter and tighter, the confidence in my brand and myself has grown. And so I felt more confident. Like I definitely there was a time when I was like, well, I can't justify, like, charging this much, because like, anybody comes to my website, it just doesn't look professional.

And I think that there's some mindset stuff there. Because I have paid a lot of money for courses that had horrible websites that they were like, really shitty sites that I was kind of looking at them as, like, Oh, this looks scammy. And then I started to read the copy. And I was like, Oh, no, this is exactly for me. And so I think like the story and the copy, and all those things can overcome poor design. But I was still feeling like, okay, I feel like I have some good copy on my site, but everything doesn't feel cohesive. And so when everything kind of got tighter, and then I was like, Oh, no, I am excited for somebody to go to the website, I am proud to send them there. And I feel like I can show up bigger. So I know for me, that's probably at a similar phase where people are like they've taken where they're at, as far as they can go with it. And it's like, Okay, if I'm going to get more competence and other like shot of energy, and inject that into myself, my business, like, I want to be really excited to just like spread this website and all my branding out to the world kind of,

Sarah Ashman 31:29

that's a really good point. And that is you use the word confidence. And that's really the biggest byproduct of doing this kind of work is that confidence is magnetic inherently. And so when you're confident in what you do, and how you're putting yourself out there in the world, be that through design, or your viewpoints, or whatever it is, that's most important to you, that inner confidence is ultimately your biggest branding tool.

Jeremy Enns 31:57

I love that. So I'd like to talk a little bit more about your business and how you've been able to grow without any marketing. But to wrap up the kind of branding talk here, I'd love to know how you would complete the sentence. If nothing else, your brand should blank.

Sarah Ashman 32:14

If nothing else, your brand should excite you.

Jeremy Enns 32:18

That's interesting. And that totally ties back into my story. Because I felt that when I was excited about my brand, I was just like, I feel more excited to do sales calls, I feel more excited to go to conferences and give people my business cards and all these other things. Whereas before I was a little like, oh, they're gonna think I'm amateur, because of some aspect that wasn't really cohesive or in alignment with who I was or the services that we were offering or anything like that. So that feels like Yeah, really a core part of branding.

Sarah Ashman 32:46

Yeah, I've actually had a client just as an example, who we finished our process, we were really clear on who she was in this future, you know, version of her business and brand and it was all clicking together. It was all tight, we'd already had a photoshoot we had already, the website was in the works, but nothing had changed on the outside yet. And she launched the same program, the same group program that she had launched previous previously that year. She didn't change anything, it was the same webinar, the same everything. The difference was she was actually showing up on the call in a different mindset. And she told me, she said, I just launched this thing, nothing has changed on the outside. And I just three acts what I made last time. And I said what do you think changed? And she said, My competence? And that makes all the difference? Because that's magnetic.

Jeremy Enns 33:48

All right. So you've been running a business for a long time now. And my understanding is that you've done almost zero marketing when it comes to growing your business and you've worked with some really big names, do you want to just share some of the people who have been maybe some of the most recognizable clients that you've been able to work with over your career?

Sarah Ashman 34:04

Sure, I've worked with people like Amy Porterfield and Melanie Duncan, Nikki Elledge, brown, gosh, just hundreds of really, really amazing entrepreneurs that I've been fortunate enough to be able to work with over the years.

Jeremy Enns 34:20

Yeah, and so especially for service based business owners and coaches, people like that, who don't need 1000 customers at any given time, or 100 customers at any given time. I think that people so often overestimate how much like outward marketing they need to do in order to run a very profitable business sometimes. And so I'm curious when you're looking at, like how you've been able to work with all these people and build your business over. It's been over a decade now working for yourself, I think, right?

Sarah Ashman 34:50

almost nine years. Yes.

Jeremy Enns 34:51

Nine years. Okay. So as you've been building a business for nine years, and it's continued to grow, and you've worked with all these amazing people like what has been applicable That that has allowed you to continue to grow without putting in a lot of like marketing effort.

Sarah Ashman 35:05

Really, I've just been focused on my work focused on my craft focused on delivering the best service and the best outcome that I can. And when I'm working with someone, I'm all in, I'm present with them. I'm not focused on who's coming down the pipeline. Next, I'm, I'm focused on them, and and really, their success is fine. And I think they feel that, you know, as part of the process, and of course, when, you know, they relaunched their brands, and they are feeling great about it, they share my name with others. And this has been what has been the the engine of my business since day one is just word of mouth is that relationship that I've developed with that client and just being really present with them and focused on my work has been exclusively how my business has run over the past nine years.

Jeremy Enns 36:02

Yeah, I love that. And one of the things when it comes to relationships, I saw this quote somewhere a few months ago, and it's just stuck with me ever since that, all else being equal people buy from their friends. So make everything else equal, and then go make a lot of friends. And I was like, Oh, that is like, so succinct. Yeah, do as good work as everybody else out there and just go meet a lot of people and start a lot of relationships, and you'll be fine. It's like, okay, that that's businesses easy if you approach it that way, or it can be, but I'm curious, like when at the start, I think a lot of the problem is we don't have that first person or those first five or 10 people. So at the start, I think you went through B school, is that right? And got some connections off the bat there.

Sarah Ashman 36:48

That's right. Yeah, I joined the school and was in at the time their, their group on Facebook was very active. And there were people asking branding questions, or style questions or design questions, and I just showed up and, you know, started to give advice or suggestions. And I wasn't really looking for, you know, anything to happen. I wasn't following that up with a Hey, DM me, if you need to know more, I was genuinely showing up from wanting to help from a place of wanting to help. And that's how I found my first handful of clients was true that I was there to help. it resonated with the person, it was really helpful. And they reached out on their own and asked if they could work with me. And that was what got the ball rolling entirely.

Jeremy Enns 37:39

Yeah, I know a few Freelancer friends who have almost built their entire continue to build their entire businesses off of Facebook groups, and just like showing up and I think the key you see, so many people do it wrong, where there is this like salesy attitude. And of course, we all here like don't do that. And it's, of course, it's still hard to like, we are showing up in some sense, because we do want to do more work for people, and we are looking for clients, but you have to really convince yourself to like, Okay, I'm here to just give. And if I can, the more generous I can be in sharing my knowledge and helping people that will come back, I just need to kind of trust the process. I kind of like your process to have, not intentionally, but joining programs that are aligned with the type of people you want to work with. And I found that oftentimes, it's in paid communities, that it's much easier to get clients than in a lot of the free groups. Have you found that to be the case as well for yourself?

Sarah Ashman 38:32

Oh, definitely. And I can honestly say that the majority of the paid programs that I've participated in, I've somehow walked out with a client or two, you know, over the years, and yeah, if you're in a group that's interested in some of the same things that you are, they're automatically going to be a little bit more aligned with who you are as a person. And so you have that connection point to begin with. And so part of your work is done in that regard.

Jeremy Enns 38:58

Do you have any process for like maintaining relationships? Or is it all very organic, that you know, you meet people and you work with some people and word spreads or because I know some people have very like thought out process of like, Okay, I know I'm going to check in I set a reminder to check in with people every so often or whatever, that isn't have these touch points.

Sarah Ashman 39:16

I tend to be very organic in that respect, but I oftentimes will set my clients as favorites in Instagram, so that I make sure that I see what they're up to, so that I can, you know, sort of stay within their within their world and, you know, just continue to help them grow along the way. I do tend to remember birthdays, that's one of that's one of my big, big things and just acknowledging my clients birthdays, is something that I that I do set reminders for, but for the most part, I will just organically because I've spent a lot of time and energy with my clients. I get to know them very deeply and what they're interested in in variably an article or podcast episode will pop up down the line. And I, you know, we'll share that with them and say, Hey, this made me think of you, I think you'd enjoy this. And so we just maintain this relationship. And for many of my clients, you know, I'm still good friends with them all these years later, and I have a feeling that will just continue to grow. So I tend to look at it less as a business transaction and more as as a deep rooted friendship that I'm establishing with my clients and continue to foster it in that way.

Jeremy Enns 40:33

Okay, yeah. Do you have a specific focus on I think you kind of talked at the start about the customer experience, kind of of doing good work, but also having the customer process being really great to something that they're going to talk about? Do you have anything that you do specifically, aside from the actual branding work that you do? And maybe that is like touching on the birthdays and things like that? Do you work anything else into your customer experience, that might not be something that people think of,

Sarah Ashman 40:58

you know, my brand has been evolving, just as I have. And so I've developed interests here and there that may or may not have anything to do with what I do. So for example, I became interested in Reiki, which is energy healing. And so lately, I've just been integrating that into what I do, and just offering on the side, hey, I don't know if you're interested in this. But maybe we could meet for 30 minutes. And I could do this with you, if that's something that would that would interest you. But by adding those little layers of things that I'm interested in passionate about as as bonuses, and of course, it's a gift from me, I found that people really feel excited and taken care of, and that they're able to experience something that maybe others won't experience. And I offer.

Jeremy Enns 41:48

I love that. What's something that you have done in your business, at any point in your business, whether this is in the past year, or in the past anytime in the past nine years, to make it more profitable. I think oftentimes, we start out, we really like struggle for a long time. And we're like barely making ends meet. And then there's like this one thing that we like, Oh, I should have known this all along, you make a tweak, and all of a sudden, you're running a more profitable business. Have you had any experiences with anything like that?

Sarah Ashman 42:12

The biggest thing for me is that I introduced a group program that I had, hadn't previously thought would work, to be honest. And I think a lot of us fall into this trap, we think, no, I have this highly specialized process. And there's no way that that can be scaled to a group. And I was definitely one of those people who, who believed that. And I think it was this mindset shift of understanding that my process could be great for a group and understanding that I could do it my way. And so what I ended up doing was creating a group program that was very small, so for 10 people, at any given time. And just by making that shift and making it something that felt in alignment with me and my own values, it really did make a huge difference in terms of the profitability of the business.

Jeremy Enns 43:05

So I'm curious what something is that you believe is absolutely essential to growing a strong business that doesn't get talked about enough.

Sarah Ashman 43:13

I feel like we're constantly being taught that we need to learn the next tactics and the next strategies. And then we need to, you know, sort of keep growing and shifting with the market. And I actually have come to understand and believe through my clients and through myself, that it's really more important to develop a relationship with yourself as that marker of what feels right for me, versus what does this blueprint, what does this guru say is right for me, and just really developing that relationship, almost using yourself as your own board of directors, to honestly assess if that's the right thing that will help you to grow your business or not. What I've noticed is that a lot of times, and I've been caught up in this is we'll adopt all of these different new things. And pretty soon, you know, you wake up one day, and you're like, how did I get here? This doesn't even feel like it's my business anymore. And so the biggest thing I think, is really developing that check in or weaving that check in on a regular basis in your business and saying, am I still in alignment? Are these things still in alignment with my business? And I feel like a lot of people don't do that. Instead, it's it's constantly the push for new and better and different.

Jeremy Enns 44:47

Yeah, that's interesting. And I feel like it can be sometimes be hard to have that kind of sense of self. And I know we've talked a little bit about why that's important around branding and also, you know, growing your business in general, one of the things that I've recently in the past year I would say, kind of stumbled into was kind of building out this board of directors of other companies and people who I just admired. And so when I've been thinking about things or thinking about like doing a lunch this way, or adding on this tactic or strategy or whatever, and just thinking about like, okay, would this brand and they're all very aligned on their kind of the way they do things. And so I think about like, okay, would these brands, would my board of directors do that for their businesses? And if the answer is like, Oh, hell, no, they wouldn't like, that definitely wouldn't be a fit for them I'm like, then maybe it's not a fit for me. And that's been so helpful to like, have that kind of mirror sounding, not a real sounding board, but just a point of reference to be like, Okay, if I want to be more like these brands, in their values and beliefs, and the way they conduct themselves, like, then I should just think about like, okay, would they do that? Would I ever see that on their Instagram or on their blog, or whatever it might be? And that's been so helpful in like making decisions in all these different ways?

Sarah Ashman 45:58

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes it can help to like, externalize that. Another thing that I've seen people do, as well is create some kind of like an alter ego, or, you know, some sort of externalized version of yourself and really making that person clear in your mind and saying, what would what would he or she do, you know, with us? And so yeah, I think that can make it easier for you to know what's the right or wrong stuff for you.

Jeremy Enns 46:25

So one of the things that I like to say about the show is that it's actually a show about building a better world disguised as a show about building better businesses. So I'm curious with the phrase building better, as in the title, what comes to mind for you? And what does that mean for you, when you hear that phrase?

Sarah Ashman 46:42

When I think of better, I think of more authentic, higher quality, pure, as opposed to being this kind of noisy, I feel like a better world is this sort of pure, more centered version of where we need to be as opposed to the noisy world that we're in right now.

Jeremy Enns 47:06

Big thanks to Sarah for coming onto the show this week. Well, I'm by no means a brand or design expert myself. I love studying the topics and I'm always excited to talk with others who have thought deeply about them. I love serious focus on the internal process of branding in particular, like I mentioned, this was something that was immediately apparent to me when I redid my brand for counterweight creative. I went into the process feeling unclear on so many aspects of where I was going, what I was doing to get there, and how all of that was being conveyed to others on the outside. Coming up with a clear brand that I was genuinely proud of, however, leveled up my confidence to show up bigger in a massive way.

You can find out more about Sarah and check out some of her incredible work at public persona.com and connect with her on Instagram at public persona. As always, we'll have links to both of those plus everything else we talked about in the show notes for this episode at better wellness dot biz slash zero to eight. This episode was produced by our amazing team at counterweight creative Big thanks in particular to Tom Kelly for sound engineering support. Karina Penner for her work on the shownotes Ari lumber dozy for his help with video editing, and Casey Bowen and Francesca Matlin for their behind the scenes work keeping everything running smoothly and on schedule. Finally, to you listening. Thank you so much for spending this time with me as always, and until next time, keep building better

Transcribed by https://otter.ai